Goth-ness

[synaethesia]

Whilst many Industrial acts are obviously by definition industrial, surely they belong here moreso than the other metal forum. Ask any rivethead which room of a club they'd like to be in and any worth their salt would pick the goth room over the metal room.

So any serious objections to NIN, Marilyn etc... being mentionned here wherever appropriate?

For example a top 10 goth records of mine would doubtless feature Pretty Hate and Mechanical Animals depending on what day I decided to post.

And if anyone's in the mood for arguing against, go ahead. Always a bit of fun. Beats fucking chess.

[Roulette]

I have to say I'm split on this.

Marilyn Manson, for example, I believe should be kept as far away from the goth board as possible. I believe that should be placed in the metal forum, personally. Other artists like Rammstein, Zeromancer, etc. I would place in the same boat. They have too many metal elements - and, to be pretty honest, I can't stand MM.

But things like Nine Inch Nails, KMFDM and the like I would have no qualm with having them placed in here.

[H]

I'm not sure MM even fits on the metal board...hes annoying...until recently I personally WOULD have called him goth, but meh!

[Roulette]

Please don't call him goth. He's Shock Rock. And irritating.

[H]

I agree, I cant stand Manson, which is why I dont want him near the metal board...

[synaethesia]

Right well you're asking for it now. Marilyn is intelligent, has bags of style, knows how to dress, has a great wife, makes great music, is an icon, is thought provoking and ambitious. If you find him irritating then no-one's going to argue with that. But if you must go on about it then you're going to get a response where I'm concerned.

I think Jez got it right when he said something along the lines of genre definitions suck ass. I'll post on this forum 'cause it's the only suitable place. The right people and all that. As with anything it's a case of play it by ear.

Sure you don't want fucktards going 'Yeah I so totally love Marilyn, he's like so goth. Hate every motherfucker yeah! Like totally, I hate my fuckin English teacher...' blah blah blah. Yes I love Marilyn. I will likely be able back any reference to him up with an intelligent justification if ever required.

I suggest you let him be mentionned every now and again where appropriate otherwise the board's either going to get filled up with pointless justifications or it's going to become a pretty dull forum instead.

And I don't want to go on about him all the time whilst the likes of Depeche are being woefully neglected.

[H]

Very good points - not taking anything away from the guy, and what I said above was supposed to be light-hearted (i know how hard it is to tell that from just plain text on a forum). Its just not my thing - it used to be, used to listen to quite a bit of manson in my mid teens, I just went off it. In all honesty, I wouldn't class him as metal, more industrial hard/alternative rock...but theres only a limit to the number of boards I can set up so meh!

Addition: I wasn't talking about the guy, I was talking about his music...I have every respect for the man himself for what he has done, and for the fact he is an individual, and yes, he is highly intelligent. The music just isn't my thing...and having read back what I said above I really didn't mean it that badly...sorry...

[Eggnchips]

i quite like Mansons stuff *cowers*
but stuff like Rammstein - how can one even consider that to be close to Goth? its probably the defining Industrial band of the moment ffs.

[H]

Heh I remember when someone called me a goth for being an Iron Maiden, I was like, "WTF you little chav!" - cos yeah, naturally it was a chav...anyone who doesn't wear white and listen to Puff my black gansta ass up rap is a goth to them!

[synaethesia]

I quite understand. Been through a few different phases of liking then not so keen then back again etc... on his music.

I can't be doing with a whole host of bands but I won't chuck a strop because someone chose to mention them on a forum. Might instead either sit back and laugh at them or be a cunt and publicly mock them, depending on whether I've woken up on the wrong side of bed or not.

[Roulette]

Well, okay, let me clarify this:

Manson, as a person, doesn't irritate me (other than a few "rumors" of him cutting on stage). I'll agree he's a pretty guy - dresses in goth-style rather well. As for him being intelligent, I wouldn't know. His music I don't like - fair enough, he's not to my taste. I've never actually made it through one of his songs without having to switch the track.

Anyone who can say they like him and has half a brain I will have nothing against.

What does irritate me - and I've come up against quite a few of them - are the depressed thirteeen year olds too boggled up on what society thinks goth is (i.e. a load of depressed, self-harming, suicidal teenagers dressed in black and worshipping satan). Quite a lot of them are into Manson and - overlooking bands who are actually goth - believes that makes them GAF.

When I say I've come up against a lot of these: I've hung around goth.net and the darkernet IRC channel for a while. I've seen these kiddies come in and say things like:

Goth131: who heer likz Manson? lol
Goth233: ME!!!!!
Goth980: I'm so depressed...
Goth233: Go cut then, lol

As I've said, his music is not goth. But if he can be mentioned with a decent level of intelligence with full acknowledgement that his music is NOT goth, then I guess I can bare to have him mentioned.

[synaethesia]

Nothing like a flock of retards to give someone a bad name. Of course, those who know better can sit back and laugh. I always presumed the following Marilyn lyric was aimed at his more retarded fans:

"Do we get it? No.
Do we want it? Yeah."

Let's get retarded, indeed.

[Roulette]

eggnchips said:

i quite like Mansons stuff *cowers*
but stuff like Rammstein - how can one even consider that to be close to Goth? its probably the defining Industrial band of the moment ffs.

Just noticed your post I was using Rammstein as an example of industrial that doesn't belong in the Goth board, quite simply.

synaethesia said:

Nothing like a flock of retards to give someone a bad name. Of course, those who know better can sit back and laugh. I always presumed the following Marilyn lyric was aimed at his more retarded fans:

"Do we get it? No.
Do we want it? Yeah."

Let's get retarded, indeed.

Agreement

As I said, demonstrate you know better (as you have), and I have no problem

[yazuil]

Heh I remember when someone called me a goth for being an Iron Maiden

i used to get tht all the time, me living in Balintore, the Ned centre of the Highlands, and all that. Ach well eventually the day came i decided to wander into school properly gothed up and all making small ppl scream as i turned corners. a fun day.

anyhoo that is by-the-by i was sposed to be saying i never used to like Marilyn Manson until the Reading Festival where he put on such an amazing stage show that i was won over to his side of Industrial/Goth/Metal/Hard Rock or wotevr it is we hav decided to define him as. I can see how ppl see him as annoying because i used to as well but ive always judged ppl by their live act and so think he's now immense

[Roulette]

As I said at the top of the thread, he is Shock Rock, as opposed to Goth. The way he dresses and covering Depeche Mode (who are darkwave/post punk/depends on the album) does not make him goth.

I'm not saying I dislike the guy (I dislike Mansonites - as I said, I have actually seen the conversation above take place - and I'm not a fan of his music personally), I'm saying he's not goth.